Ferrari's claimed 599XX Nurburgring record is smelly. Very smelly. blog on Evo Community by Monkey Harris

FERRARI'S CLAIMED 599XX NURBURGRING RECORD IS SMELLY. VERY SMELLY.

April 23, 2010 4:44 PM | Posted By: Monkey Harris
18 Comments | 3796 Views
Related Categories: Misc

Let's pour a little kerosene on the bonfire of the 599XX's claimed 'record' at the Nordschleife.

Firstly, what is a 'production-based' record? I'd like to know, especially considering that Ferrari's interpretation appears to exclude the Radical SR8 - which is jolly convenient because the 'ickle Radical was actually 10sec quicker than the 722bhp Ferrari.

This new categorisation seems rather at odds with the way the company communicated the 599XX project last year: stating that it was in no way a road car, could only ever be used on the track and was far closer in spirit to a racing car than a street machine. Clearly that opinion has changed.

And the time itself? I'm not that impressed actually. That sounds churlish, but do a little basic maths and the 6.58 recorded isn't where I thought a 722bhp Fandango bristling with active aero should be.

On a lap of the VLN circuit, the GP track is about 1 min 40sec. In the last VLN, the Manthey Porsche GT3 R ran an 8min 21 sec lap in the race: which equates to something well-under 6min 50sec on the Nordschleife.

In something that is actually far-more 'road based' than a 599XX, despite being a proper racing car.

Oh, and it's the small matter of 240bhp weaker, too.

There's one big 'if' here. We need to know if the 599XX was on slicks or Cup tyres. If it was slicks, I'll stand by the criticism of the time set. If not, I'm much more impressed.

Either way, I'm still mighty unimpressed by the 'road-based' claim, and the apparent disregard for Radical's efforts. Perhaps we should test an SR8 and a 599XX in a traffic jam on the A30 heading into Cornwall in July to see which is genuinely more 'road-based'. Whatever that means.

Thoughts on all of this?

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COMMENTS

tab75xl at 4:33 PM May 6, 2010

@Liosandro, I didn't say that the Radical was more comfortable than the XX, I said that each of them was uncomfortable and the Radical is at least technically capable of road use. The Radical which set the record drove to the circuit from England, so it can be done, although I wouldn't take a girl to a restaurant in one (unless it was Sabine Schmitz and she was driving!). Ferrari are trying to accentuate the fact that the XX is much quicker than roadgoing supercars, which is a fine and important point but trying to claim some sort of record is the wrong way to do it and dismissing the Radical's record is very wrong. As for the how significant the tweaks are which made the GTO, I guess we'll see when we get the GTO's time - on road tyres. If Ferrari claim a record for the GTO among cars you might *want* to use on the road, they could have a point.

Liosandro at 3:24 PM May 1, 2010

@tab75xl I'm just saying that the Radical IS a race car with lights bolted on. The 599xx is a road car modified to race. It is a HUGE difference in my view on how you define the "roadiness" of a car. Sorry, but it's false your claim that both cars are suitable to a person that doesn't wear a helmet and a racing suit. Simply enough, in a dream where I own both cars, I could NEVER use the Radical to take a girl to a restaurant or a theatre. What if it rains? What would you do with a valet? What I'm saying is that the Radical isn't a road car. It is more of a race car than the Ferrari. Proof? Without really changing nothing huge in the setup, Ferrari made the 599GTO. You can really modify the 599GTO to be an FXX. You will NEVER be able to tweak the Radical to be a comfortable GT. Never.

narciris at 6:32 PM April 29, 2010

car was on slicks. it can go faster, you can see the mistakes, the driver is not a Ringmeister. strange that it can not go over 300 on the straight. the speed in bends like Flugplatz, Schwedenkreuz, Angstkurve is breathtaking.

tab75xl at 5:59 PM April 29, 2010

Liosandro, what are you claiming? That it's more of a road car than the Radical? Despite the fact that the Radical is actually a road car and the XX isn't? You can't take a girl to a restaurant in an XX either, you know... Fact is that, while the Radical is a road-legal racer which would be unpleasant on the road (noisy, too stiff, wouldn't like kerbs), all of those things would also be true of the XX - even if you homologated it for road use. And though you may be right that it's easier make a fast lap time if you start with a race car which you've made road-legal, it's also easier to make a fast lap time if you've designed with the lack of compromise that a £1.2m list price allows - for instance, it means you can put a 722bhp V12 in it. If you prefer the Ferrari, great - it's a lovely thing. But dismissing the Radical's time and claiming any sort of "record" is just plain lying.

bad_roo at 10:35 AM April 29, 2010

So Ferrari lay claim to the 'production-based' record? I'm assuming that this definition is burdened by a vast welter of caveats, clauses and conditions. I'm laying claim to a far simpler record. Fastest vehicle around the Ring with an unsecured copy of Razzle on the parcel shelf. (1984 Ford Sierra 2.0i for all you Nordschleife completists).

Liosandro at 10:00 AM April 29, 2010

Ferrari claims record for "production based car". I understand that putting lights and registration can define a car as "road legal". But come on: any car you have to wear an helmet to ride in isn't a road car. Any car you can't drive a pretty girl with miniskirt to a restaurant isn't road car. Any car you look idiot if you drive it with formal suit isn't a road car. The Radical is a racecar with lights bolted on. The shape of the car, the setup, aerodynamics, everything is a no-compromise racing concept. I find relatively easier conceiving a car for the track starting from scratch than remaining tied to a real production car design.

AntiGelu at 6:08 PM April 26, 2010

They look like slicks to me. An an "XX" F or 599 is anything but a "road" car to me. And yes, I instantly thought of Radical when they claimed it as "record for production cars". Shame on Nissan for launching this "Nordschleife" hysteria. After bragging with their GT-R everywhere it looks like a lot of owners here are really finding the end product far far away from what Nissan is claiming. So far that in fact they have organised themselves in a "group" and are exchanging now "letters" with Nissan.

CampDavid at 1:51 PM April 26, 2010

The whole 'ring time thing has become fairly pointless. It seems that every manufacturer wants a bold claim now and therefore they're happy to bend the truth a little with the tyres in question and set up, not to mention the small matter of engine power. Far more interesting to me is the question of how many laps of the ring can a car do before it cries enough. I remember being there a couple of years back when a 355 and a 360 had both had to retire after about 4 laps due to gearbox faults

toyz4bigboys at 9:05 AM April 25, 2010

Why am I so strangely unimpressed by everything that Ferrari ever does? So they jumped on the Ring bandwagon - 10 years after every other manufacturer. BFD - the Enzo couldnt even do 2 laps on the ring. This is clearly a race car just like the DBR9 or 997 RSR is "production derived" - and both of them are much faster on the Ring. Olaf Manthey told me that last year's RSR does the Nordschleife in 6:49 and I have recently done a passenger lap with Christian Menzel in just a normal 997 Cup and he did that in a fraction over 7mins. That's a "production derived" car that has 420hp. And btw it looked and felt a LOT more stable than the 599XX - just look how unsafe it bounced around thru Hatzenbach and up from Fuchsroehre to Adenauer Forst. All in all: a marketing department lie.

"him" at 10:20 PM April 24, 2010

Can you let me know when the 'A30 Test" is planned, I will try and be available...

xeviuus at 9:51 PM April 24, 2010

Chris I agree with you. If you have to wonder if the car is street legal then I would say it's not. Fxx is easily not since no one will ever be able to drive in the street. So as radical. Meanwhile Nissan gtr, there are no question. So on so forth. I don't think FXX record counts.

markmctavish at 11:41 AM April 24, 2010

I did think about comparing the 24hr times...glad someone went and dug them out.

365Daytonafan at 7:33 AM April 24, 2010

Maybe Evo should set up and official league table for ring times, with a defined set of criteria for recognition, such as car had to be driven to circuit etc?

Visceral1111 at 9:55 PM April 23, 2010

Yendig- My thoughts exactly. Monkey- Aren't ferrari the type of people who will "have no available press cars at the time" if you rub them too strongly?

Kren at 9:18 PM April 23, 2010

So the mantra goes like this. Develop a car, take it to the Ring, post a time. Any time will do, because all you have to do as a car manufacturer is craft an imaginative press release. The format? Stete time - check. State which record you've broken; or invent one - check. Explain why every cars time that is faster than yours doesn't count (they used slicks; changed the mapping; we just want to pretend they didn't do it) - check. And there you go, big headline, bigger debate and no conclusive answer. But hey, isn't that what half the fun is?

Yendig at 7:08 PM April 23, 2010

Caparo T1. That's NOT a road legal racing car, is it Ferrari? It is quite nippy, though... I don't see the point of Ferrari even bothering to time this car. It's not a full-blown racing car. It's not a road car. It's only a technology prototype. Why time it?

Roger Green at 5:32 PM April 23, 2010

Watching the video I reckon there's more to come from the car (it looks too stiff at the rear) and the driver and the laptime doesn't extract the old start/finish straight. Of the Radical it was completely road legal - I was in it when we drove it there and the same set of tyres (Dunlop Direzzas) were just for the whole trip, laps and all. The 599XX lap is here: http://community.evo.co.uk/users/Roger-Green/videos/view.cfm?videoID=346

BadgerBoy at 4:58 PM April 23, 2010

Well, Ferrari are 'special' aren't they and anything they certify as fact should be good enough for everyone. Why should they play by anyone elses rules anyway? No one consulted them when the rules were written. And of course the fact this 'record' appears on the very day the 599 GTO (which of course is so closely-related to the XX that they're effectively the same car) is launched in China has nothing at all to do with crass marketing. Oh no. If only Porsche would do more of this kind of thing rather than letting the cars themselves do the talking.

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