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FAO MR. RAINBIRD
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I'm sure your a man who will know all about Sierra Cosworth brakes.

Currently I have the 2WD set-up, with solid discs.
I'm not 100% happy because they get crazy hot on track (my cooling ducts help, but not enough). I also seem to be lunching through standard factor pads at a frightening rate (marginally quicker than the fronts!) - although I guess that's partly a consequence of running them so hot.

So, having largely exhausted ways of cooling them (short of cutting holes in the bodywork), I'm thinking about switching to a 4x4 vented set-ups.

Questions:
How much difference will vented discs make?
What's the common upgrade route for the 2WD guys?
Do the 4x4 vented calipers fit onto the 2wd solid carriers? (I'm guessing they're identical but a bit wider)
Is there a good pad recommendation? not after the last word in friction (have the bias slightly turned down at the rear as it is), but something that works well at high temps (endurance pad perhaps?)

--

Chief Wheel and Cake Monkey - Strong Broo Racing

Hi Nef,
See below :).

nefarious_ said...

I'm sure your a man who will know all about Sierra Cosworth brakes.

Currently I have the 2WD set-up, with solid discs.
I'm not 100% happy because they get crazy hot on track (my cooling ducts help, but not enough). I also seem to be lunching through standard factor pads at a frightening rate (marginally quicker than the fronts!) - although I guess that's partly a consequence of running them so hot.
This is the same issue that 2wd Cossies have - when I first started doing track days with my Sapphire, I got through a brand new set of rear pads in one 20 minute session :shock:

So, having largely exhausted ways of cooling them (short of cutting holes in the bodywork), I'm thinking about switching to a 4x4 vented set-ups.
This is also the cure :)

Questions:
How much difference will vented discs make?
It should resolve the issues, especially if combined with some suitably rated pads (find out what the Taxi drivers are using if you don't want to stretch to some race pads)

What's the common upgrade route for the 2WD guys?
4x4 discs and callipers as an initial upgrade, if this is still not enough (power dependent), then 300mm discs and brackets to move the calliper out:
300mm rear disc conversion, but this requires a minimum of 16" wheels.

Do the 4x4 vented calipers fit onto the 2wd solid carriers? (I'm guessing they're identical but a bit wider)
No, for the above reason. The vented disc requires the use of the 4x4 carriers as well.

Is there a good pad recommendation? not after the last word in friction (have the bias slightly turned down at the rear as it is), but something that works well at high temps (endurance pad perhaps?)
A hard pad like the DS3000 "might" be worth attempting before going to the expense of discs and callipers, but it depends on what sort of temps you're getting the rear discs up to. I'm sure from your last post we worked out that you needed to move the bias forward (which might cure all your issues)?


--

Nordschleife - there's only two barriers to worry about - the ones on the left and the ones on the right!

nefarious_ said...

Is there a good pad recommendation? not after the last word in friction (have the bias slightly turned down at the rear as it is), but something that works well at high temps (endurance pad perhaps?)

Pagid Yellows RS29(?) turned the cheesy standard M3 breaks into unfadeable track weapons.

Are to sure they aren't dragging??

--

Cheers,
Mike

caneswell said...

nefarious_ said...

Is there a good pad recommendation? not after the last word in friction (have the bias slightly turned down at the rear as it is), but something that works well at high temps (endurance pad perhaps?)

Pagid Yellows RS29(?) turned the cheesy standard M3 breaks into unfadeable track weapons.

Are to sure they aren't dragging??

Definitely worth investigating, as they are known to stick if not properly maintained and they are over 20 years old. Obviously my recommendations are based on the assumption you have gone through everything with a fine tooth comb ;).

--

Nordschleife - there's only two barriers to worry about - the ones on the left and the ones on the right!

Thanks for the advice - kinda what I thought (bar the 2wd/4wd carriers).

I'd hoped I might get away with these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Sierra-Cosworth-4WD-Escort-Cosworth-Rear-Brake-calipers-Red-Poly-40-C-B-/271111426880?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1f801340
but I guess I'm better off getting some with the carriers.

Any bright ideas on where to find calipers with carriers (or, at a push, just carriers on their own). Only ones on ebay want £110 EACH for just the carriers.

Re: the bias valve thing - it very very close. If I leave the bias valve 100% open (with factor pads) it's just about perfect in a straight line, but will easily lock a rear if I don't H&T *perfectly* or on turn in if I'm slightly late off the pedal. So I turn the rears down just a fraction to accomodate my sometimes clumsy footwork.
Ideally, I'd like to solve the problem properly rather than sacrificing absolute braking to keep the temps in check.

Updated December 17, 2012 at 6:11 PM

--

Chief Wheel and Cake Monkey - Strong Broo Racing

I'm pretty sure they're not dragging. My test is driving as far as I can without using the brakes and then taking disc temps. Temps seem low, and are equal left to right.
There's no noticable drag in regular driving, the car will quite happily coast a fair distance, and its easy enough to push round the garage (with no scrapy noises).

Anything else I should be checking?

--

Chief Wheel and Cake Monkey - Strong Broo Racing

They could just be dragging when hot...mustang brakes do that, even the fancy brembos that come on the homologated versions. I know nothing about sierra brakes however so I could be blowing smoke.

Did I miss Nef getting a Cosworth???:shock:

It would appear so

Updated December 17, 2012 at 9:01 PM

--

and from the beginning think what may be the end.

Dinny_G said...

Did I miss Nef getting a Cosworth???:shock:

It would appear so

Nah (more's the pity). This is the back end of the Westie...

--

Chief Wheel and Cake Monkey - Strong Broo Racing

Ah right, I thought there was a memo I missed!!

You done any writing recently I've also missed?? I did enjoy that piece you did for Evo!

--

and from the beginning think what may be the end.

Dinny_G said...

You done any writing recently I've also missed?? I did enjoy that piece you did for Evo!

Sadly, it's all been a bit quiet lately. PPC have been struggling a bit financially, so took a lot of work back in house at the beginning of last year.

Watch this space though - I'm hoping to get some of the tales of my racing exploits into print next year...

--

Chief Wheel and Cake Monkey - Strong Broo Racing

Good stuff - looking forward to it.. :)

--

and from the beginning think what may be the end.

nefarious_ said...

Thanks for the advice - kinda what I thought (bar the 2wd/4wd carriers).

I'd hoped I might get away with these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Sierra-Cosworth-4WD-Escort-Cosworth-Rear-Brake-calipers-Red-Poly-40-C-B-/271111426880?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1f801340
but I guess I'm better off getting some with the carriers.

Any bright ideas on where to find calipers with carriers (or, at a push, just carriers on their own). Only ones on ebay want £110 EACH for just the carriers.

Re: the bias valve thing - it very very close. If I leave the bias valve 100% open (with factor pads) it's just about perfect in a straight line, but will easily lock a rear if I don't H&T *perfectly* or on turn in if I'm slightly late off the pedal. So I turn the rears down just a fraction to accomodate my sometimes clumsy footwork.
Ideally, I'd like to solve the problem properly rather than sacrificing absolute braking to keep the temps in check.

I've just asked one of my mates who breaks these (no pun intended :lol: ). I'll let you know what he comes back with.

--

Nordschleife - there's only two barriers to worry about - the ones on the left and the ones on the right!

nefarious_ said...

Dinny_G said...

Did I miss Nef getting a Cosworth???:shock:

It would appear so

Nah (more's the pity). This is the back end of the Westie...

WTF? I thought most of the entire point of buying a light kit car is that the cost of consumables like brakes and tyres drops to practically zero? And how can the rear pads wear out before the fronts? They should be doing 10% of the work at most!

--

Share your car adventures.
www.auto-journals.com

Real life with cars

David_Yu said...

nefarious_ said...

Dinny_G said...

Did I miss Nef getting a Cosworth???:shock:

It would appear so

Nah (more's the pity). This is the back end of the Westie...

WTF? I thought most of the entire point of buying a light kit car is that the cost of consumables like brakes and tyres drops to practically zero? And how can the rear pads wear out before the fronts? They should be doing 10% of the work at most!

Let's not start that again!:)

--

Cheers,
Mike

David_Yu said...

nefarious_ said...

Dinny_G said...

Did I miss Nef getting a Cosworth???:shock:

It would appear so

Nah (more's the pity). This is the back end of the Westie...

WTF? I thought most of the entire point of buying a light kit car is that the cost of consumables like brakes and tyres drops to practically zero? And how can the rear pads wear out before the fronts? They should be doing 10% of the work at most!

You can lead a horse to water..... ;)

--

Nordschleife - there's only two barriers to worry about - the ones on the left and the ones on the right!

David_Yu said...

WTF? I thought most of the entire point of buying a light kit car is that the cost of consumables like brakes and tyres drops to practically zero? And how can the rear pads wear out before the fronts? They should be doing 10% of the work at most!

First up, it's about 30-35% of the work.
Second, the rear pads are considerably smaller than the fronts, so the heat gets concentrated
Thirdly, the fronts are in the open air, while the rears are fully encased in bodywork, with little or no airflow.
Also, to some extent, one makes up for the lightweightness by driving harder - 3-4 car lengths out of a GTR in every major braking zone!

I'm assuming the wear rate is purely a result of the excessive temps (I saw 450+C disc temp on a pretty chilly October trackday before the cooling ducts went on).
That said, it's not the end of the world when Ferodo factor pads are £16.99 a set and I can change them in under 20 mins!

I'd just like to get the pedal feel a little better, and cut down the travel slightly to make H&T easier. If I can sort a fit and forget solution for £250-300, that'd be great.

Updated December 18, 2012 at 9:45 AM

--

Chief Wheel and Cake Monkey - Strong Broo Racing

Try a pad upgrade before you throw bigger, heavier(?), more expensive discs and callipers at it.

--

Cheers,
Mike

caneswell said...

Try a pad upgrade before you throw bigger, heavier(?), more expensive discs and callipers at it.

Nah. A pad upgrade is exactly what I don't want. Everything else being equal, stickier pads would generate more heat and make the problem worse (plus I'd be rattling through £80-a-set pads every three/four trackdays).
Beside, the way the balance currently is, I'm just have to compensate for better pads by moving the bias forwards.

I need to treat the problem, not the symptom.

--

Chief Wheel and Cake Monkey - Strong Broo Racing

450C? That's nothing, a GT-R owner would be deliriously happy if that was the max temp their pads saw!

I wasted a set of Carbonetic Spec C pads and they're rated to 800C. The Spec Rs, whilst still rated to the same temp were miles better. Currently running RS29s.

What is the weight distribution of a Westfield with your frame onboard? I would be surprised if the rears did as much as 35% of the work under hard braking when the weight is thrown forward...

Most cars consume front pads at least twice as fast as rears, often more like three or four, as I'm sure you know.

--

Share your car adventures.
www.auto-journals.com

Real life with cars

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