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BREXIT - THE MOVIE

Marv said...

GraniteV8 said...

At an irking level, Norway has a fantastic relationship with most European countries. It has some of the safest working environments I've experienced in Europe and the rest of the world, great control over its own money (see the infrastructure work going on to battle the oil situation by creating jobs). They also have cheap electronics when compared to salary, a fantastic education system of its own making and some of the best childcare in the world to help getting people back to work.

All of this with a strong identity and not being part of Europe. If we got even part of what they have with a greater control of laws, bureaucracy and the extra 10billion to do this it would be a huge victory for everyone in the UK.

Dave!

Norway is quite a different country to the UK though. Population is only 5m compared to 60m in the UK, it's a massive country (more square KM than Germany) and has lots of natural resources.

Just because something works for Norway, doesn't mean it'll work for us.

That, Norway isn't successful because it's not in the evil EU. There are other Scandinavian countries that are in the EU and are similar to Norway in many ways.

It would need people to have a real discussion about what we want from our political system to make any lasting change. All I foresee happening in the event of a leave vote is us falling further down the hole of greedy neoliberalism.

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mattcambs said...

NotoriousREV said...

mattcambs said...

a7x88 said...

Out of interest - for those who think it is undemocratic.. Why?

The EU Council are appointed, not elected. These guys are the ones who decide what laws go to the vote in the European Parliament. The EU Council meet in private so none of their reasons for deciding thesr laws is on public record.

But they're voted on by elected MEPs. Laws in the UK are prepared by unelected civil servants and voted on by MPs. What's the difference?

Quite a lot I'd say
Your link text

You've linked to a site that proves my point. The process is essentially the same. You don't think our MPs sit and think up all of our laws on their own, do you?

Laws are proposed, they are debated by the lower house (House of Commons or European Parliament) and then the upper house (House of Lords or European Council, which is the individual governments of the member countries)

Updated May 28, 2016 at 12:49 PM

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RIC

Quoted from

"Public Bills change the law as it applies to the general population and are the most common type of Bill introduced in Parliament. Government ministers propose the majority of Public Bills, those put forward by other MPs or Lords are known as Private Members' Bills."

And from....

Ministers and MPs

Government ministers are chosen from MPs and Lords in Parliament. Your MP may be a member of the party forming the current Government, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are working 'in government'. Ministers must regularly respond to oral and written questions from MPs and Lords.

Scrutiny of the government

Parliament checks the work of the government on behalf of UK citizens through investigative select committees and by asking government ministers questions. The House of Commons also has to approve proposals for government taxes and spending.


So whilst I think the argument you make is a good one, Rev, I think there is far more transparency and accountability in the UK government.

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mattcambs said...

Quoted from

"Public Bills change the law as it applies to the general population and are the most common type of Bill introduced in Parliament. Government ministers propose the majority of Public Bills, those put forward by other MPs or Lords are known as Private Members' Bills."

And from....

Ministers and MPs

Government ministers are chosen from MPs and Lords in Parliament. Your MP may be a member of the party forming the current Government, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are working 'in government'. Ministers must regularly respond to oral and written questions from MPs and Lords.

Scrutiny of the government

Parliament checks the work of the government on behalf of UK citizens through investigative select committees and by asking government ministers questions. The House of Commons also has to approve proposals for government taxes and spending.


So whilst I think the argument you make is a good one, Rev, I think there is far more transparency and accountability in the UK government.

Just because a bill is proposed or introduced by an MP, doesn't mean that MP has written it or is even responsible for coming up with it. They're just someone appropriate to present it to the house. You'll find the same in the European Parliament: an MEP will propose each bill to the parliament, commissioners won't do it themselves.

The European Parliament has the same checks & balances as the UK Parliament. In fact, they have more as they not only have to get each bill past the European Parliament, but past each member government, which have the same process you've just described.

Just because you don't know the process, it doesn't make it opaque or undemocratic.

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As an example, did you know that you can propose EU legislation as an EU citizen? All you need is to collect a total of 1000000 signatures from at least 7 of the EU countries and your legislation will be proposed. Sounds pretty democratic to me.

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I'm voting out. I don't want to be part of a socialist experiment that's doomed to fail.

NotoriousREV said...

As an example, did you know that you can propose EU legislation as an EU citizen? All you need is to collect a total of 1000000 signatures from at least 7 of the EU countries and your legislation will be proposed. Sounds pretty democratic to me.

Yeah....

In Switzerland you need just 50000 signatures. Now the EU requirement may be proportionally in line considering the total population involved, but do you think it ever likely anyone will meet that criteria?

To me it's just an example of BIG government limiting functional democracy.

There are a couple of other things that concern me.
1. If the decision is as critical as the UK government are telling us, why give us the referendum?
2. If the result is a Leave majority, how will all the politicians in power who so vigorously campaigned to Stay justify their positions?
I'm a Cameron fan, but his behaviour during this campaign has really p1ssed me off. If we vote Leave then he and many others need to resign from office immediately as, in my opinion, they have no mandate to run a UK that is outside the EU.

Rev, you're a smarter guy than me so I expect a stellar counter from you. Like everyone though I have to come to a decision within my own scope of understanding.

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1. Because public opinion is split and the major parties were losing votes to UKIP. The Government needs a mandate from the voting public and this is a way to do it without having to lose an election.

2. That's exactly what Boris is banking on: Cameron loses the vote, Bojo gets handed the reins.

I genuinely don't know which way I'm voting yet, I keep changing my mind, but I can make cogent arguments either way hence me playing devils advocate.

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NotoriousREV said...

1. Because public opinion is split and the major parties were losing votes to UKIP. The Government needs a mandate from the voting public and this is a way to do it without having to lose an election.

2. That's exactly what Boris is banking on: Cameron loses the vote, Bojo gets handed the reins.

I genuinely don't know which way I'm voting yet, I keep changing my mind, but I can make cogent arguments either way hence me playing devils advocate.

Well, your devils advocate presented better reasons for staying than I've heard from a lot of the politicians :lol:

Tough one isn't it. I wonder if for this reason we will see a lot of voter apathy on the day?

Updated May 28, 2016 at 9:08 PM

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mattcambs said...

I'm a Cameron fan, but his behaviour during this campaign has really p1ssed me off.

I'm a Tory boy obviously, but the way the govt has abused its position in the referendum is shockingly bad. Any facts and figures they come out with to substantiate their claims are total conjecture and nobody believes them.

To my mind, promising a referendum is what got them the vote at the last election. There's going to be quite the backlash if we remain.

Don't get me started on how the BBC has spun all this

Updated May 28, 2016 at 11:12 PM

exiges said...

mattcambs said...

I'm a Cameron fan, but his behaviour during this campaign has really p1ssed me off.

I'm a Tory boy obviously, but the way the govt has abused its position in the referendum is shockingly bad. Any facts and figures they come out with to substantiate their claims are total conjecture and nobody believes them.

To my mind, promising a referendum is what got them the vote at the last election. There's going to be quite the backlash if we remain.

Don't get me started on how the BBC has spun all this

I agree on all these points.

In fact the way the govt (and Obama) have behaved makes the whole thing quite sinister in my opinion.

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exiges said...

mattcambs said...

I'm a Cameron fan, but his behaviour during this campaign has really p1ssed me off.

I'm a Tory boy obviously, but the way the govt has abused its position in the referendum is shockingly bad. Any facts and figures they come out with to substantiate their claims are total conjecture and nobody believes them.

To my mind, promising a referendum is what got them the vote at the last election. There's going to be quite the backlash if we remain.

Don't get me started on how the BBC has spun all this

Correct, correct and correct. I too am a Conservative voter, but being on the 'other side' of the argument has been eye-opening. What I find truly scary is how many in the public have just accepted the headlines without actually reading the underlying story. The '£4300 per household' thing being a case in point.

I know it's quite close in the polls, 2 things are in 'our' favour:

1) Remain apathy - you're less likely to be motivated to go out and vote for 'no change'.
2) The young - there are more youngsters who are remain and more elders who are leave - but luckily the young turn out less to vote.

Those 2 things could help the leave camp.

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I'm an out.

If we do get an out result, Cameron can dissappear as soon as possible. He's got it totally wrong if you are of a tory persuasion.

Although I ask why? He himself has changed his stance. The why is the secret world of back handers grant my words.

Cameron is a terrible Tory leader. If he's still around I really can see him snatching defeat from the jaws of victory at the next election.

Both sides of the campaign have been appalling with loads of mis-information and scaremongering from both sides.

I'm currently an "In" vote. From my own research I'm yet to see a properly valid point for voting out.

a7x88 said...

From my own research I'm yet to see a properly valid point for voting out.

There is an obvious and universal one - whatever is going wrong somewhere necessarily comes from the outside.

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a7x88 said...

. From my own research I'm yet to see a properly valid point for voting out.

Self-determination; then if we are in a mess it's one of our own making

John said...

Cameron is a terrible Tory leader. If he's still around I really can see him snatching defeat from the jaws of victory at the next election.

Especially as he's been quite vocal that he's not going to stand as leader of the Tory party for the next general election.

Probably has some cushy job lined up in Brussels

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